How AI can make cow IVF smarter and more sustainable — Dr. Cara Wells, EmGenisys

[00:00:01] I'm Jane Z, and this is Farm to Future, the podcast all about eating better for the planet.

[00:00:07] It's 2024, and cow IVF is a thing.

[00:00:12] And Dr. Cara Wells is on a mission to help us breed cows more sustainably.

[00:00:17] Cara is a reproductive physiologist who founded EmGenisys.

[00:00:21] They developed this technology that uses AI to watch videos of embryos and predict which ones will lead to successful pregnancies.

[00:00:29] I know, this sounds kind of sci-fi, and to be honest, I did get a little queasy talking about some of this stuff.

[00:00:35] But we also had a really honest conversation about the realities of modern cattle farming, from birth to pasture to feedlot to the slaughterhouse.

[00:00:44] And when this really clicked for me was learning how IVF could actually help us transition to more sustainable and regenerative farming.

[00:00:51] We now have the technology to breed cows that need less feed, produce less methane, and potentially thrive on grass alone,

[00:00:59] which gets us to a future where cows can live their whole lives on pasture,

[00:01:03] and we can get fully grass-fed and grass-finished beef at scale.

[00:01:08] If you're new here, welcome, welcome.

[00:01:10] Be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening.

[00:01:14] And you can find me, Jane Z, on Instagram at farm.to.future.

[00:01:19] Welcome to the show, Cara.

[00:01:22] Everyone I've talked to about the Thrive Summit, I'll mention cow IVF, and that is the most, like, head-turning thing,

[00:01:29] because, I don't know, I guess it sounds the most controversial when you first think about it.

[00:01:33] And I think for folks that are not familiar with the animal industry and with the cattle industry,

[00:01:38] it can be like, oh, whoa, cows have IVF, too?

[00:01:41] Like, that's kind of wild.

[00:01:42] So I'm so glad we're getting the chance to, like, sit down, deep dive into what you work on.

[00:01:47] But I want to start out with your background and how you sort of got into this space to begin with.

[00:01:52] Well, thanks, Jane, and thank you for having me on your podcast.

[00:01:55] And thank you for helping inform people about cattle IVF.

[00:01:59] It's a subject that I'm really passionate about, but yes, most people are very unfamiliar with it.

[00:02:03] My background specifically, I am a reproductive physiologist.

[00:02:07] And in my career, I've had the opportunity to work with both human and animal IVF systems.

[00:02:13] And I got familiar with these processes when I was a student at Texas Tech University.

[00:02:19] Initially, I had aspirations to become a large animal veterinarian.

[00:02:22] I've grown up absolutely loving horses, loving everything about them.

[00:02:27] And so horses really inspired my journey to learn more about large animals and animal health.

[00:02:33] While a student at Texas Tech, I was doing all the things that I could to get into vet school,

[00:02:38] which included undergraduate research.

[00:02:40] And through that research path, I really found a love and appreciation for reproductive sciences,

[00:02:45] which includes assisted reproductive techniques like embryo transfer, IVF, cloning,

[00:02:51] and other way to perpetuate genetics from animals, and obviously the study of human embryos.

[00:02:58] So in this process, I became really familiar with these IVF techniques.

[00:03:03] And I stumbled on a problem that it doesn't matter what species the embryo is,

[00:03:09] whether it's human, horse, cows, pigs,

[00:03:12] the way that we evaluate embryos to select them for transfer has not changed in about 50 years now,

[00:03:19] since we first started doing IVF back in the 70s.

[00:03:22] And I became really fixated on that problem and created a startup company called EmGenesis to create non-invasive solutions to evaluate embryos

[00:03:32] with the intent to improve pregnancy outcomes of IVF and embryo transfer in both people and animals.

[00:03:38] This is kind of off topic, but I remember last time we chatted, you mentioned you live outside of Austin.

[00:03:42] And in Texas, there's sort of this big exotic animal.

[00:03:46] I don't want to call it like obsession, but like a lot of people have exotic animals, right?

[00:03:50] Yeah, so this is one of my favorite topics.

[00:03:53] I find it fascinating.

[00:03:54] I really have a passion for conservation and endangered species.

[00:03:58] And in Texas, and I think some other states too,

[00:04:02] exotic wildlife species have really found a refuge on Texas ranches on private land.

[00:04:08] Interestingly, our climate in Texas is very similar to some of the regions in the world where these animals are most at risk.

[00:04:16] And that's Africa and that's India.

[00:04:17] These animals are very accustomed to a warm, dry climate.

[00:04:20] And guess what?

[00:04:22] We have that here in Texas.

[00:04:23] So in Texas, it is completely legal and actually incentivized by our agricultural exemptions to have species like giraffes, bongo, kudu,

[00:04:34] Texas deer, and even rhinoceros.

[00:04:37] And animals from these regions on Texas private ranches are privately owned.

[00:04:42] And these ranches are doing great things for conservation to help protect these endangered species,

[00:04:47] even outside of the government-funded zoos and other associations.

[00:04:51] Driving around the neighborhood, does it feel like a safari?

[00:04:53] Like, are you seeing these animals off the road?

[00:04:55] I wish.

[00:04:56] But yes, actually, sometimes, especially in the Texas hill country west of Austin, San Antonio,

[00:05:02] you'll be driving down the highway, see a high-fence ranch,

[00:05:04] and it's not completely out of the ordinary to see kudu, oryx, even zebra I saw one day standing by the fence.

[00:05:13] And yeah, they're safe, happy, and healthy on these ranches.

[00:05:16] And there's even some groups that have made like conservation meets capitalism models

[00:05:20] to breed and incentivize the reproduction and protection of these animals.

[00:05:25] When you say conservation meets capitalism, you mean like they'll breed for other folks to raise?

[00:05:30] Yes. So these animals, because they are rare and exotic, they have a very high inherent value.

[00:05:37] When people typically think about owning exotics, their mind goes towards game hunting,

[00:05:42] which is legal and it is a thing in Texas.

[00:05:45] But a lot of the people in this market that want these animals really do want to do good things for conservation.

[00:05:51] And they like the ability to have really pretty pasture ornaments, as I call them.

[00:05:55] So there's a market where you can buy these animals, which are typically valued at upwards of $10,000,

[00:06:02] sometimes upwards of $100,000.

[00:06:04] And when they breed and make live offspring,

[00:06:07] that offspring can be sold live to other people who want to invest in these exotic animals.

[00:06:12] And they can go start their own nucleot herds and such,

[00:06:16] and really create value from these live animals.

[00:06:19] Do you think you would ever work on IVF for these animals?

[00:06:23] Like, would you ever do like giraffe IVF or zebra IVF?

[00:06:26] Actually, yes.

[00:06:27] So the product that I'm working with is software to evaluate embryo health.

[00:06:32] And we do this through very non-invasive measures.

[00:06:34] We take 30-second videos of embryos just under a microscope.

[00:06:38] Commercially, our big opportunities are in domestic species,

[00:06:42] where a lot of reproduction takes place, like cattle or horses.

[00:06:45] And on the flip side of that coin, even human IVF,

[00:06:48] our technology is the first of its class to see embryo health in real time,

[00:06:54] which means we can see if that embryo is stressed.

[00:06:57] We can see if that embryo is developing normally.

[00:06:59] We can see if that embryo is starting to struggle,

[00:07:02] if their metabolism is slowing down.

[00:07:04] And with these capabilities,

[00:07:05] we can really get a pulse on that embryo's health

[00:07:08] with less trial and error than traditional measures.

[00:07:11] So MGenesis has actually done a couple of special contract projects

[00:07:16] working with some exotic species.

[00:07:18] One of my favorites was with the San Diego Zoo,

[00:07:21] where we looked at southern white rhino

[00:07:24] and northern white rhino videos of embryos.

[00:07:27] That was a favorite.

[00:07:28] And then we're also working with some breeders

[00:07:30] to do a Grevy zebra, kudu, and bongo project here in the future,

[00:07:34] which is really exciting.

[00:07:36] So I've not had the opportunity to see a giraffe embryo yet,

[00:07:39] but that's definitely on the list.

[00:07:40] You're like living a dream job.

[00:07:42] Do you feel like that?

[00:07:44] Sometimes, you know, ever a dull moment,

[00:07:46] I really feel privileged and fortunate to get to work

[00:07:49] with such cool animals,

[00:07:51] get invited to go out to some of these properties

[00:07:53] and, you know, play a small role

[00:07:56] in keeping these animals on this planet

[00:07:58] for future generations to enjoy and protect as well.

[00:08:02] Talk about how you developed this technology

[00:08:04] because it's super fascinating.

[00:08:05] And it started out with a really manual process, right?

[00:08:08] So yeah, going back to what I said earlier

[00:08:11] is the way that people select which embryos to transfer,

[00:08:15] whether it's animal or human,

[00:08:17] has not changed in about 50 years.

[00:08:19] That is human embryologists looking at these embryos

[00:08:22] under a microscope

[00:08:23] and grading the embryos based off visibly apparent characteristics

[00:08:27] like cell shape, color, size, symmetry, fragmentation.

[00:08:31] And that's really subjective.

[00:08:33] Jane, if you and I were both embryologists,

[00:08:35] we might see the same embryo and you might love it

[00:08:38] and I might think that it was already dying.

[00:08:40] There are studies out there that shows that

[00:08:42] one in three embryologists do not agree

[00:08:44] on the quality grade of embryos.

[00:08:46] And that's a problem,

[00:08:47] especially since in every mammalian IVF system,

[00:08:51] a lot of money is invested into these processes

[00:08:53] and to produce the embryos

[00:08:55] and two, to care for those animals

[00:08:57] after the embryo is transferred.

[00:08:58] So I really thought that in this day and age of technology,

[00:09:03] where cameras are really good,

[00:09:04] where machine learning is really good,

[00:09:06] there should be more objective ways

[00:09:08] to evaluate this embryo's health.

[00:09:11] So literally in April 2020,

[00:09:13] at the start of the pandemic,

[00:09:16] I came across a TED Talk

[00:09:17] from an interesting technology

[00:09:18] that had nothing to do with reproduction,

[00:09:20] animals, or even embryos for that matter.

[00:09:23] It was a filter

[00:09:24] called video motion magnification

[00:09:26] developed at MIT,

[00:09:28] which amplified micromotions

[00:09:29] embedded in video data.

[00:09:30] So the example that really resonated with me

[00:09:33] was they took a video

[00:09:34] of just a man sitting in front of the camera,

[00:09:37] nothing special, right?

[00:09:37] But then when they use this video filter,

[00:09:39] you could see his skin turn red and blue

[00:09:41] as his blood became oxygenated and deoxygenated.

[00:09:44] I'm like, well, that's super cool.

[00:09:46] That's not something that I can see

[00:09:48] in your face looking at you right now,

[00:09:50] but it's something that was very apparent

[00:09:52] and clear with this filter.

[00:09:54] So I was like, well, that's super cool.

[00:09:56] I wonder what would happen

[00:09:57] if we put this filter on videos of embryos.

[00:10:00] Embryos are living, growing organisms.

[00:10:03] They're going from, you know,

[00:10:05] in a cattle example,

[00:10:06] one cell to live calf

[00:10:09] that can nurse, walk, run

[00:10:11] in a span of about nine and a half months.

[00:10:13] So we know that these cells should be dividing.

[00:10:15] They need to be differentiating

[00:10:16] into different cell types.

[00:10:18] And as an embryologist,

[00:10:19] that's not something that I can see

[00:10:20] looking at these embryos under a microscope,

[00:10:21] but we know that it's happening

[00:10:23] and it's happening at a rather quick pace.

[00:10:25] So I shared this TED talk

[00:10:28] with a veterinarian

[00:10:29] that I was friends with,

[00:10:30] Dr. Russell Killingsworth,

[00:10:31] who's actually one of my co-founders of MGenesis.

[00:10:33] And I was like, check this out.

[00:10:35] Let me know what you think.

[00:10:36] And immediately his brain

[00:10:38] went to the same place that I did.

[00:10:40] And what would happen

[00:10:42] if we use this video filter

[00:10:43] on videos of embryos?

[00:10:45] So Dr. Killingsworth

[00:10:46] is a cattle veterinarian

[00:10:47] out of Shamrock, Texas,

[00:10:48] and he exclusively practices

[00:10:50] embryo transfer in cattle.

[00:10:52] So he comes across

[00:10:53] a lot of embryos every week.

[00:10:55] So within a week of watching the video,

[00:10:58] he was taking videos

[00:10:59] with just an old camera

[00:11:00] that he had mounted to his stereoscope,

[00:11:03] recording them

[00:11:03] and emailing me those videos.

[00:11:05] I purchased the filter from MIT.

[00:11:07] I applied it to these videos of embryos

[00:11:09] and we saw that some of them moved

[00:11:10] and some of them didn't,

[00:11:11] which was super cool,

[00:11:12] but we weren't sure what that meant.

[00:11:14] Is movement good?

[00:11:15] Is it bad?

[00:11:16] We needed to study this.

[00:11:17] So about 30 days later,

[00:11:19] the animals that these embryos

[00:11:21] were transferred in

[00:11:22] were pregnancy tested.

[00:11:23] So we had initial pregnancy outcomes

[00:11:25] on these transferred embryos.

[00:11:27] So we know which embryos

[00:11:28] made pregnancies,

[00:11:28] which ones did not.

[00:11:29] So I had something to compare it to.

[00:11:32] Like I said,

[00:11:32] April 2020 wasn't really supposed

[00:11:34] to leave the house.

[00:11:35] So I was sitting at home

[00:11:37] trying to mine objective data

[00:11:39] from these videos of embryos.

[00:11:41] So the way that I did that

[00:11:43] is I took this 30 second video

[00:11:44] and I paused it

[00:11:46] at five second intervals.

[00:11:47] And every five seconds,

[00:11:48] I measured the X and the Y diameter

[00:11:50] of those cells.

[00:11:52] And I measured how

[00:11:53] the inside of the embryo,

[00:11:55] which we call the inner cell mass,

[00:11:56] moved within the outside membrane,

[00:11:58] which is called the zona pellucida.

[00:12:00] And what we ended up finding

[00:12:01] in that study

[00:12:02] is that fast and slow embryos

[00:12:04] did not make pregnancies.

[00:12:05] Average activity embryos

[00:12:07] did make pregnancies.

[00:12:08] It was a rather perfect

[00:12:10] bell-shaped curve

[00:12:11] where the extremes

[00:12:13] didn't make pregnancies

[00:12:14] and the ones

[00:12:15] in the bulk of the population did.

[00:12:16] So we knew we were

[00:12:18] onto something

[00:12:18] we thought

[00:12:19] this was really fascinating.

[00:12:21] No one had done studies

[00:12:22] looking at real-time activity

[00:12:23] in embryos before.

[00:12:25] And so that was

[00:12:25] the origin story

[00:12:26] of MGenesis

[00:12:27] and that what led us

[00:12:29] to win our first

[00:12:30] grant and prize funding

[00:12:32] to automate this

[00:12:33] and go on

[00:12:34] and build a commercial product

[00:12:35] and a company from it.

[00:12:37] And I love that,

[00:12:38] you know,

[00:12:38] this was like

[00:12:38] a little silver lining

[00:12:39] that came out of the pandemic.

[00:12:41] You know,

[00:12:41] you actually had the time

[00:12:42] and space to go

[00:12:43] and like review

[00:12:44] these videos manually,

[00:12:46] pause them every five seconds

[00:12:47] and figure that out.

[00:12:48] That's super cool.

[00:12:49] And so what does

[00:12:50] the technology look like today?

[00:12:52] I'm assuming you've applied

[00:12:53] some kind of machine learning

[00:12:54] to it.

[00:12:55] Sure.

[00:12:55] So our technology

[00:12:57] today

[00:12:57] is completely software

[00:12:59] and videos

[00:13:00] can be collected

[00:13:01] off of hardware.

[00:13:02] So phones and microscopes

[00:13:05] that people who work

[00:13:06] with embryos

[00:13:07] already own.

[00:13:08] So what we ask people

[00:13:09] to do is just take

[00:13:10] a 30 second video

[00:13:11] of those embryos

[00:13:12] and we built

[00:13:13] a web-based platform.

[00:13:14] So a website

[00:13:15] where you can upload

[00:13:16] those videos.

[00:13:17] Behind the scenes

[00:13:18] in those videos,

[00:13:19] we do two things

[00:13:20] which is a very quick

[00:13:21] instant process.

[00:13:22] But the first thing

[00:13:23] that we do

[00:13:24] is we quantify

[00:13:24] the activity present

[00:13:26] in the embryo region

[00:13:27] of those videos.

[00:13:28] So basically

[00:13:29] what we do

[00:13:30] is we go frame by frame

[00:13:31] through those videos

[00:13:33] and we calculate

[00:13:33] how much the embryo changes.

[00:13:35] That activity

[00:13:36] is directly correlated

[00:13:37] to the embryo's health,

[00:13:39] viability,

[00:13:39] stress,

[00:13:40] and metabolic function

[00:13:41] and even sex.

[00:13:42] Fun fact,

[00:13:43] male embryos

[00:13:44] grow faster

[00:13:44] than female embryos

[00:13:45] and we can see that

[00:13:46] with this technology.

[00:13:47] The second thing

[00:13:48] that we do

[00:13:49] is we've trained

[00:13:49] machine learning models

[00:13:51] based on

[00:13:52] pregnancy outcomes

[00:13:53] of these embryos

[00:13:54] to predict

[00:13:55] if the embryo

[00:13:56] has activity patterns

[00:13:57] of those associated

[00:13:58] with full-term pregnancies

[00:13:59] or activity patterns

[00:14:00] of embryos

[00:14:01] that never make

[00:14:02] pregnancies at all.

[00:14:03] And using the machine

[00:14:04] learning allows us

[00:14:05] to be highly specific

[00:14:06] and highly targeted

[00:14:07] to create

[00:14:08] highly predictive

[00:14:09] and accurate likelihoods

[00:14:11] of that embryo's chance

[00:14:12] in making a pregnancy.

[00:14:13] So what the user sees

[00:14:15] in our web-based platform

[00:14:16] is just a viability score

[00:14:18] which is a probability

[00:14:19] which they can use

[00:14:20] to help manage

[00:14:21] their embryo transfer

[00:14:22] and selection decisions.

[00:14:23] I'm picturing

[00:14:24] red, yellow, green.

[00:14:25] Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:25] Exactly.

[00:14:26] So I'm curious,

[00:14:27] I'd love to dive

[00:14:28] into the cattle industry

[00:14:29] and what it looks like

[00:14:31] working with them.

[00:14:32] How common is IVF

[00:14:33] in cattle breeding?

[00:14:35] It's a great question.

[00:14:36] So IVF

[00:14:37] is definitely

[00:14:38] still a high-end

[00:14:39] niche market

[00:14:39] in the cattle breeding

[00:14:41] industry right now

[00:14:42] but it's gaining traction.

[00:14:43] We're seeing

[00:14:44] about 15%

[00:14:45] increase

[00:14:46] of volume

[00:14:47] of embryos

[00:14:47] made in cattle

[00:14:48] year over year

[00:14:49] and this is a trend

[00:14:50] that's been going on

[00:14:51] for about 10 years now.

[00:14:53] And you might wonder

[00:14:54] why do IVF

[00:14:55] and the purpose

[00:14:56] in cattle

[00:14:57] what's the benefit?

[00:14:58] And I like to remind people

[00:15:00] that the process

[00:15:01] for IVF in cows

[00:15:02] is very similar

[00:15:03] to the process

[00:15:04] of IVF in people

[00:15:05] but the intended use

[00:15:06] is very different.

[00:15:07] In humans,

[00:15:08] IVF is used

[00:15:09] to treat infertility.

[00:15:10] So these are

[00:15:11] patients,

[00:15:12] couples,

[00:15:13] typically that try

[00:15:14] to get pregnant

[00:15:14] on their own

[00:15:15] the natural way

[00:15:16] and they experienced

[00:15:18] a year of trying

[00:15:19] to not get pregnant

[00:15:20] and so then

[00:15:21] they need more

[00:15:22] intervening measures

[00:15:23] like IVF

[00:15:24] to help them

[00:15:25] treat that infertility.

[00:15:26] In cattle,

[00:15:27] we're not trying

[00:15:28] to treat infertility

[00:15:30] as much as we're

[00:15:31] trying to perpetuate

[00:15:32] superior genetics.

[00:15:33] So a male,

[00:15:35] a bull,

[00:15:36] he can impregnate

[00:15:36] as many females

[00:15:37] a year

[00:15:38] as we want

[00:15:39] to breed him,

[00:15:40] right?

[00:15:40] You know,

[00:15:41] he's not carrying

[00:15:41] that baby

[00:15:42] so he's not limited

[00:15:43] by nature

[00:15:43] to how many females

[00:15:45] can be inseminated

[00:15:46] with his genetics

[00:15:47] each year.

[00:15:47] But the female,

[00:15:49] she can only have

[00:15:49] one calf per year

[00:15:50] naturally

[00:15:51] so if we have

[00:15:52] a female that

[00:15:53] doesn't require

[00:15:54] a lot of feed,

[00:15:55] that has

[00:15:55] excellent confirmation

[00:15:56] that makes more

[00:15:57] milk than the

[00:15:58] average cow,

[00:15:59] hence can feed

[00:16:00] more people

[00:16:00] per animal

[00:16:01] than lower

[00:16:02] performing cows,

[00:16:03] she's bottlenecked

[00:16:04] by her own

[00:16:05] reproductive system

[00:16:06] because she can

[00:16:07] only have

[00:16:07] one calf

[00:16:08] per year.

[00:16:09] But IVF

[00:16:10] allows us

[00:16:10] to release

[00:16:11] those floodgates.

[00:16:12] We can take

[00:16:13] that female's

[00:16:14] eggs,

[00:16:15] her oocytes,

[00:16:15] and we can get

[00:16:16] 5, 10,

[00:16:17] 15, 20

[00:16:18] oocytes

[00:16:19] per collection,

[00:16:20] fertilize them

[00:16:21] with bulls

[00:16:22] from good genetics,

[00:16:23] make multiple

[00:16:24] embryos,

[00:16:25] and put those

[00:16:25] embryos into

[00:16:26] lower quality

[00:16:27] surrogates

[00:16:28] who can have

[00:16:29] that female's

[00:16:30] genetic calf

[00:16:31] with those

[00:16:31] excellent

[00:16:32] sustainability

[00:16:33] genetics that

[00:16:33] we all want

[00:16:34] and she can

[00:16:35] have more

[00:16:35] babies than

[00:16:36] one per year

[00:16:37] that nature

[00:16:38] would restrict

[00:16:38] her to.

[00:16:39] So we really

[00:16:40] use IVF as a

[00:16:41] tool to create

[00:16:42] genetic progress

[00:16:43] and help reach

[00:16:44] some of these

[00:16:44] animal welfare,

[00:16:45] health,

[00:16:46] and sustainability

[00:16:46] goals through

[00:16:47] amplifying genetics

[00:16:48] at a faster rate

[00:16:49] than can be

[00:16:50] achieved by nature.

[00:16:50] I have so many

[00:16:51] questions.

[00:16:52] I want to learn

[00:16:53] about the

[00:16:53] connection to

[00:16:54] sustainability,

[00:16:54] but I was

[00:16:56] reading this

[00:16:56] novel called

[00:16:57] The Farm.

[00:16:58] Have you

[00:16:58] heard of that?

[00:16:59] I've heard of it,

[00:17:00] but I've not read it.

[00:17:01] I'm sorry.

[00:17:01] Yeah, no, it's okay.

[00:17:02] So the premise is

[00:17:03] it's basically about

[00:17:04] surrogacy,

[00:17:05] but it's this

[00:17:06] sort of dystopian,

[00:17:08] but not even

[00:17:08] that far off

[00:17:09] story.

[00:17:10] So there's this

[00:17:10] retreat that

[00:17:11] women go to

[00:17:12] in upstate New York

[00:17:13] and it's very

[00:17:14] wellness focused.

[00:17:15] You can have

[00:17:15] unlimited,

[00:17:16] super healthy

[00:17:17] food and yoga

[00:17:18] classes and you

[00:17:20] spend time in

[00:17:20] nature and you

[00:17:21] get paid a lot

[00:17:22] of money to be

[00:17:23] there and all

[00:17:23] you have to do

[00:17:24] is produce a

[00:17:25] baby.

[00:17:26] And that's sort

[00:17:26] of the premise

[00:17:27] is that it's

[00:17:28] this like ultra

[00:17:29] elite surrogacy

[00:17:31] targeting very

[00:17:32] wealthy women

[00:17:33] and couples who

[00:17:34] either can't have

[00:17:35] children on their

[00:17:36] own, they're older

[00:17:37] or they just

[00:17:38] prefer to have

[00:17:39] someone else carry

[00:17:40] it.

[00:17:40] And so the

[00:17:41] product is these

[00:17:42] surrogates, but

[00:17:43] they're all like

[00:17:43] very young, very

[00:17:44] healthy individuals.

[00:17:46] And as you were

[00:17:47] talking, I was

[00:17:47] thinking like,

[00:17:48] oh, that's kind

[00:17:49] of another

[00:17:49] difference in

[00:17:50] like how you

[00:17:51] would approach

[00:17:52] this process.

[00:17:52] It feels weird

[00:17:53] talking about

[00:17:53] breeding humans,

[00:17:54] but like the

[00:17:55] difference in

[00:17:55] surrogates too

[00:17:56] is like you

[00:17:56] mentioned with

[00:17:57] the cow surrogates,

[00:17:58] you could go

[00:17:59] with, I think

[00:17:59] you use the

[00:18:00] word like inferior

[00:18:01] surrogates, but

[00:18:02] like inject these

[00:18:04] embryos that have

[00:18:04] superior genetics

[00:18:05] in them.

[00:18:06] Exactly.

[00:18:07] So we're not

[00:18:08] completely off base

[00:18:09] with this book.

[00:18:10] So these inferior

[00:18:12] animals, typically

[00:18:13] they're heifers and

[00:18:15] they've been

[00:18:15] genetically tested

[00:18:16] and they're

[00:18:17] healthy, but

[00:18:18] they don't

[00:18:18] possess the

[00:18:19] genetics to

[00:18:20] make more

[00:18:21] milk than the

[00:18:22] average cow does

[00:18:23] or feed efficiency

[00:18:24] genetics.

[00:18:24] So they're just

[00:18:25] kind of average

[00:18:26] baseline cow.

[00:18:27] Now I will

[00:18:28] throw the caveat

[00:18:29] in there that

[00:18:30] the recipients,

[00:18:31] the surrogates

[00:18:32] that we use,

[00:18:33] they're still

[00:18:33] really high

[00:18:34] quality premium

[00:18:35] animals and

[00:18:36] they're actually

[00:18:36] probably better

[00:18:37] genetics than

[00:18:38] what you see

[00:18:38] in other

[00:18:39] countries.

[00:18:40] But for here,

[00:18:41] they're not the

[00:18:41] really high end

[00:18:42] elite breeding

[00:18:43] donors that we

[00:18:44] really want to

[00:18:45] perpetuate the

[00:18:45] genetics from.

[00:18:46] So we have

[00:18:47] farms where

[00:18:49] these heifers

[00:18:50] go to live

[00:18:51] and they will

[00:18:51] be our surrogates

[00:18:52] and these heifers

[00:18:53] are fed some

[00:18:54] of the best

[00:18:54] diets in animal

[00:18:56] agriculture in

[00:18:57] this country.

[00:18:57] A lot of them

[00:18:58] have activity

[00:18:59] trackers so we

[00:19:00] can see when

[00:19:01] they're in heat,

[00:19:02] we can see if

[00:19:03] they're not

[00:19:03] coming up for

[00:19:04] water as much,

[00:19:05] we can see if

[00:19:05] they're laying

[00:19:06] down too much,

[00:19:07] which can be a

[00:19:07] sign that they're

[00:19:08] sick and so

[00:19:09] they're monitored

[00:19:10] constantly so we

[00:19:11] can give them

[00:19:11] the best health

[00:19:12] and that's

[00:19:13] because they're

[00:19:13] going to be

[00:19:14] the surrogates

[00:19:15] for some of the

[00:19:15] best genetics

[00:19:16] in the country.

[00:19:17] On the donor

[00:19:18] side, which these

[00:19:19] are the superior

[00:19:19] genetic animals,

[00:19:20] these females

[00:19:21] were typically

[00:19:22] genetically tested

[00:19:23] as young animals

[00:19:24] just an ear sample

[00:19:26] and their DNA

[00:19:27] was tested.

[00:19:28] And with that,

[00:19:28] we can see

[00:19:29] their propensity

[00:19:30] for milk production,

[00:19:32] confirmation,

[00:19:33] fertility,

[00:19:34] feed efficiency,

[00:19:35] which is how fast

[00:19:36] you grow off

[00:19:37] of how much feed.

[00:19:38] It's better if you

[00:19:39] grow a lot,

[00:19:39] consuming less feed,

[00:19:41] that's less inputs

[00:19:42] that we have to put

[00:19:42] into that other.

[00:19:43] Methane is actually

[00:19:44] a genetic trait

[00:19:45] and so we can

[00:19:46] take all these

[00:19:47] factors and pick

[00:19:48] which ones will be

[00:19:49] a good candidate

[00:19:51] to breed.

[00:19:51] Other factors we can

[00:19:52] look at is heat

[00:19:53] tolerance.

[00:19:53] So some places

[00:19:55] in the world

[00:19:55] are very warm,

[00:19:56] we want these

[00:19:56] heat tolerant

[00:19:57] animals,

[00:19:58] insect tolerance

[00:19:59] or insect

[00:20:00] resistance if,

[00:20:01] you know,

[00:20:01] this animal is

[00:20:01] going to live

[00:20:02] in like a hot

[00:20:02] humid area of the

[00:20:03] world.

[00:20:04] So we can look

[00:20:04] at all these

[00:20:05] factors that really

[00:20:06] play into that

[00:20:07] animal's health

[00:20:07] and performance

[00:20:08] and select which

[00:20:09] donors we want.

[00:20:10] Once they're selected

[00:20:11] as a donor,

[00:20:12] they just go through

[00:20:13] a very minimally

[00:20:14] invasive egg

[00:20:15] retrieval process.

[00:20:16] We call this

[00:20:16] an ovum pickup

[00:20:17] in cattle or OPU

[00:20:18] where their oocytes

[00:20:20] or their eggs

[00:20:21] are aspirated

[00:20:21] from their ovaries.

[00:20:22] It's a standing

[00:20:23] procedure,

[00:20:24] takes a few minutes,

[00:20:25] then that animal

[00:20:25] is free to go.

[00:20:26] She doesn't really

[00:20:27] know anything

[00:20:27] ever happened to her.

[00:20:29] Those eggs

[00:20:29] are taken to an

[00:20:30] IVF lab,

[00:20:31] they're fertilized

[00:20:32] with sperm,

[00:20:33] they're grown for

[00:20:33] seven days and at

[00:20:34] seven days they can

[00:20:35] either be frozen

[00:20:36] or shipped fresh

[00:20:37] to that surrogate

[00:20:38] facility that I

[00:20:39] told you about

[00:20:40] where those

[00:20:41] embryos are

[00:20:41] transferred into

[00:20:42] the surrogates

[00:20:43] and then that

[00:20:44] pregnant animal

[00:20:44] is taken care of

[00:20:45] until she gives

[00:20:47] birth and weans

[00:20:47] that calf.

[00:20:48] When you say

[00:20:48] aspirated,

[00:20:49] is that like a

[00:20:50] vacuum device?

[00:20:51] Correct, yeah.

[00:20:52] Okay, okay.

[00:20:52] And conformation,

[00:20:53] you mentioned that's

[00:20:54] one of the traits,

[00:20:54] what does that mean?

[00:20:55] So conformation

[00:20:56] is the animal's

[00:20:58] anatomy and their

[00:20:59] structure.

[00:20:59] So when we look

[00:21:01] at conformation,

[00:21:01] we want good

[00:21:03] hooves,

[00:21:04] we want good

[00:21:05] bones,

[00:21:05] we want good

[00:21:06] udder

[00:21:07] conformation.

[00:21:08] conformation,

[00:21:08] we typically

[00:21:09] want them to be

[00:21:10] lean and energy

[00:21:11] efficient,

[00:21:11] but if they were

[00:21:12] a beef animal,

[00:21:13] we would want

[00:21:14] them to be a

[00:21:15] very muscular

[00:21:15] animal because

[00:21:16] they're creating

[00:21:16] more protein

[00:21:17] on their structure.

[00:21:18] So when we say

[00:21:19] conformation,

[00:21:20] we're really looking

[00:21:20] at that animal's

[00:21:21] build and how

[00:21:22] that can apply

[00:21:23] to their performance

[00:21:23] or their longevity

[00:21:25] and their health.

[00:21:26] This may be a

[00:21:26] silly question,

[00:21:27] but are all

[00:21:28] female cows bred

[00:21:29] for milk and

[00:21:32] all male cows

[00:21:32] bred for beef?

[00:21:33] No, so typically

[00:21:34] we look at the

[00:21:35] animal's breed for

[00:21:36] that some breeds

[00:21:38] are more inclined

[00:21:39] to make more

[00:21:40] gallons or higher

[00:21:41] quality milk and

[00:21:42] some breeds are

[00:21:43] more inclined to

[00:21:44] grow fast,

[00:21:45] be highly muscular

[00:21:46] and make good

[00:21:47] beef.

[00:21:48] So when we look

[00:21:49] at breeds on

[00:21:49] the dairy side,

[00:21:51] you're probably

[00:21:51] familiar with those

[00:21:52] black and white

[00:21:52] cows.

[00:21:53] Those are called

[00:21:53] Holsteins.

[00:21:54] That's your

[00:21:54] stereotypical dairy

[00:21:56] cow.

[00:21:56] There's also a

[00:21:57] smaller breed called

[00:21:59] Jersey's that are

[00:22:00] really popular in

[00:22:01] this country.

[00:22:01] Those are those

[00:22:02] brown ones and

[00:22:03] they have really

[00:22:04] high lipid

[00:22:04] content in their

[00:22:05] milk, so high

[00:22:06] butterfat content.

[00:22:07] So their milk is

[00:22:08] actually more used

[00:22:09] towards ice cream,

[00:22:10] butter, and

[00:22:12] creamier products than

[00:22:14] what the Holsteins

[00:22:15] milk would be used

[00:22:16] for.

[00:22:16] On the beef side,

[00:22:17] you're probably

[00:22:18] familiar with

[00:22:18] certified Angus

[00:22:19] beef and just

[00:22:20] that black beef

[00:22:21] cow.

[00:22:21] That's an Angus,

[00:22:22] that's a very

[00:22:23] popular beef cow in

[00:22:24] this country that

[00:22:25] is famous for

[00:22:25] that, but there's

[00:22:27] tons of different

[00:22:27] beef and dairy

[00:22:28] breeds, but

[00:22:29] they're selected

[00:22:30] for their ability

[00:22:31] to make either

[00:22:32] good meat or

[00:22:32] good milk.

[00:22:33] Gotcha.

[00:22:33] How does natural

[00:22:36] breeding work in

[00:22:37] the cattle industry?

[00:22:38] Do they just

[00:22:38] put a male and

[00:22:39] female cow together

[00:22:40] in a barn?

[00:22:41] What does that

[00:22:41] look like?

[00:22:42] Sure.

[00:22:43] So the dairy

[00:22:44] industry really

[00:22:44] doesn't use natural

[00:22:46] live cover breeding

[00:22:47] anymore.

[00:22:48] If they're not doing

[00:22:49] embryo transfer,

[00:22:50] they're probably

[00:22:51] doing artificial

[00:22:51] insemination.

[00:22:53] So that's where

[00:22:54] the semen is

[00:22:55] collected from the

[00:22:55] bulls.

[00:22:56] It's either frozen

[00:22:57] and put into

[00:22:58] straws, and when

[00:22:59] the females are in

[00:23:00] heat, you can just

[00:23:01] go and inject that

[00:23:02] semen into their

[00:23:03] uterus to breed

[00:23:04] them.

[00:23:04] And artificial

[00:23:05] insemination is

[00:23:06] really great because

[00:23:07] it's cleaner and

[00:23:08] safer for the

[00:23:09] bulls than

[00:23:10] actually natural

[00:23:11] reproduction.

[00:23:12] In nature, that

[00:23:13] bull is very likely

[00:23:14] to get kicked, which

[00:23:15] can hurt him or

[00:23:16] render him infertile.

[00:23:17] With artificial

[00:23:18] insemination, only

[00:23:19] the people doing it

[00:23:20] get kicked.

[00:23:21] So it's actually

[00:23:21] safer for the

[00:23:22] animals.

[00:23:23] But natural

[00:23:24] reproduction is more

[00:23:25] common on the

[00:23:26] beef side where

[00:23:27] these animals are

[00:23:28] typically raised on

[00:23:29] several hundred

[00:23:29] acres or even

[00:23:30] sometimes several

[00:23:31] thousand acre

[00:23:32] pastures.

[00:23:33] In the sense, we

[00:23:34] turn out a bull

[00:23:35] with females.

[00:23:36] He is allowed to

[00:23:37] hang out with

[00:23:38] them, eat with

[00:23:39] them when they

[00:23:39] come in heat, and

[00:23:40] then nine and a

[00:23:41] half months later,

[00:23:42] those calves will

[00:23:42] be born.

[00:23:43] Nine and a half

[00:23:44] months, that's

[00:23:44] really similar to a

[00:23:45] human gestation

[00:23:46] period.

[00:23:46] It is, yes.

[00:23:47] But their babies

[00:23:48] are a lot bigger

[00:23:49] than ours.

[00:23:49] Yeah, I would

[00:23:50] imagine.

[00:23:51] I want to go back

[00:23:51] to the sustainability

[00:23:52] piece.

[00:23:53] So you had

[00:23:54] mentioned certain

[00:23:55] traits that we

[00:23:56] would look for

[00:23:57] including lower

[00:23:58] methane gas and

[00:23:59] then also being

[00:24:01] able to grow

[00:24:01] faster on less

[00:24:03] feed.

[00:24:03] Are those like

[00:24:04] some of the

[00:24:04] characteristics that

[00:24:05] you would point

[00:24:06] to when we look

[00:24:07] at how this

[00:24:08] process helps

[00:24:09] with sustainability?

[00:24:10] Definitely.

[00:24:10] And it also

[00:24:11] highly ties into

[00:24:13] the economics of

[00:24:14] producing animals

[00:24:15] in these products.

[00:24:16] So it's actually

[00:24:17] a really favorable

[00:24:18] ecosystem when you

[00:24:19] are selecting for

[00:24:20] sustainability.

[00:24:21] We have to

[00:24:22] remember that the

[00:24:24] owner of these

[00:24:24] animals, which

[00:24:25] we're going to

[00:24:25] call the B for

[00:24:26] dairy producer, they

[00:24:27] have to pay for

[00:24:28] everything that their

[00:24:29] animal eats and

[00:24:30] they get paid for

[00:24:32] the products that

[00:24:33] their animals make.

[00:24:34] So they get paid

[00:24:35] for milk if you're

[00:24:36] a dairy or beef or

[00:24:38] per pounds of

[00:24:38] carcass if you're a

[00:24:40] beef producer.

[00:24:40] So we're

[00:24:41] incentivized to want

[00:24:42] these animals to

[00:24:42] make as much as

[00:24:43] possible.

[00:24:43] But if we're

[00:24:44] paying for their

[00:24:45] feed and if it

[00:24:46] takes a lot of

[00:24:47] pounds of feed to

[00:24:48] get a gallon of

[00:24:49] milk or pound of

[00:24:50] muscle, these

[00:24:51] inputs can be very

[00:24:52] very costly for

[00:24:53] those producers.

[00:24:54] But genetically,

[00:24:56] some animals grow

[00:24:56] faster off less

[00:24:58] feed, that's

[00:24:58] called being

[00:24:59] feed efficient,

[00:24:59] or make more

[00:25:00] milk off of less

[00:25:01] feed.

[00:25:02] And so it's

[00:25:03] really desirable

[00:25:03] for that producer

[00:25:04] to select for

[00:25:05] those things because

[00:25:06] then he can feed

[00:25:07] the animals less,

[00:25:08] but they still

[00:25:09] grow and they're

[00:25:10] highly efficient.

[00:25:11] Selecting against

[00:25:12] methane also plays

[00:25:14] into this equation,

[00:25:16] if you will,

[00:25:16] because methane is

[00:25:18] really nothing but

[00:25:19] wasted energy, right?

[00:25:20] It's energy out.

[00:25:22] Well, feed is

[00:25:22] energy in.

[00:25:23] So when you have

[00:25:24] high methane out,

[00:25:25] you're wasting the

[00:25:26] energy from the

[00:25:27] feed that you just

[00:25:28] purchased and gave

[00:25:29] to that animal.

[00:25:29] So when we select

[00:25:31] for less methane

[00:25:32] and high feed

[00:25:33] efficiency, they're

[00:25:34] not wasting that

[00:25:35] energy as methane,

[00:25:36] but they're putting

[00:25:37] that energy towards

[00:25:37] growth.

[00:25:38] So they're putting

[00:25:38] it into muscle mass

[00:25:40] or into milk

[00:25:41] production, less

[00:25:42] methane, more

[00:25:43] product.

[00:25:43] It's a win-win for

[00:25:44] people consuming

[00:25:45] them, the producer

[00:25:46] paying for them,

[00:25:47] and the environment

[00:25:48] because we don't

[00:25:49] have to put as

[00:25:50] many inputs to get

[00:25:51] pounds of protein

[00:25:52] out of these animals.

[00:25:53] Can you say more

[00:25:54] about the economic

[00:25:54] impact?

[00:25:55] Like how much a

[00:25:56] farmer puts in

[00:25:58] versus like how

[00:25:58] much they make

[00:25:59] per cow?

[00:26:00] Sure.

[00:26:01] Off the top of my

[00:26:01] head, most farms

[00:26:03] are probably looking

[00:26:04] at about $8 to $10

[00:26:05] per head per day

[00:26:07] and feed cost alone.

[00:26:09] I'm not actually sure

[00:26:10] beet prices and milk

[00:26:12] prices at the moment,

[00:26:13] but obviously those

[00:26:14] prices need to be

[00:26:15] high enough to justify

[00:26:17] the $8 to $10

[00:26:17] per head per day

[00:26:19] of feed inputs.

[00:26:20] So for a dairy cow,

[00:26:21] they would need to

[00:26:22] at least be producing

[00:26:24] $8 worth of milk

[00:26:25] per day to break

[00:26:26] even.

[00:26:26] Okay, gotcha.

[00:26:28] Do you have any

[00:26:29] info on the economic

[00:26:30] impact of failed

[00:26:31] embryo transfers?

[00:26:32] That I can speak

[00:26:33] a lot more to.

[00:26:34] So yes, IVF is an

[00:26:36] expensive process.

[00:26:36] It's a high risk,

[00:26:38] high reward game.

[00:26:39] If you will,

[00:26:39] a lot of times

[00:26:40] these embryos that

[00:26:42] possess the genetics

[00:26:43] of these genetic

[00:26:44] traits that we just

[00:26:44] talked about,

[00:26:45] feed efficiency,

[00:26:46] methane reduction,

[00:26:47] fertility,

[00:26:47] confirmation,

[00:26:48] that's going to be

[00:26:49] a premium animal.

[00:26:50] You know,

[00:26:51] if you look at

[00:26:52] your show dogs

[00:26:53] or your show horses

[00:26:54] or your show cattle,

[00:26:55] those are going to

[00:26:56] run a higher premium

[00:26:57] than a more average

[00:26:59] animal,

[00:27:00] if you will.

[00:27:00] So being successful

[00:27:02] with IVF can really

[00:27:03] create a high value

[00:27:05] offspring at the

[00:27:06] end of the day,

[00:27:06] but it's not a process

[00:27:08] that's without cost.

[00:27:09] So the producer

[00:27:10] needs to pay

[00:27:12] to make the embryos

[00:27:13] and then once the

[00:27:14] embryos are made,

[00:27:15] they need to pay

[00:27:16] to have those

[00:27:17] embryos transferred,

[00:27:18] which is usually

[00:27:19] looking at about

[00:27:20] $75 per embryo.

[00:27:22] To transfer an embryo,

[00:27:23] you have to have

[00:27:24] a female to put

[00:27:25] those embryos into,

[00:27:26] so you have to have

[00:27:27] a herd of surrogates

[00:27:28] that you've already

[00:27:29] purchased that are

[00:27:30] healthy and that are

[00:27:31] good contenders to be

[00:27:32] the surrogates of

[00:27:33] these really high value

[00:27:34] embryos.

[00:27:34] We're probably looking

[00:27:35] at about $2,300

[00:27:39] per surrogate animal

[00:27:40] and feed comes into

[00:27:41] us.

[00:27:42] Whether you're a donor

[00:27:42] or you're a surrogate,

[00:27:43] you have to eat,

[00:27:44] so we're looking at

[00:27:44] $8 to $10 per day.

[00:27:46] So in our calculations,

[00:27:48] using a very generous

[00:27:49] 50% pregnancy rate

[00:27:51] of IVF,

[00:27:52] which typically

[00:27:53] it's much less than

[00:27:53] that, but we'll be

[00:27:54] generous here,

[00:27:55] we're looking at

[00:27:56] about $5,500

[00:27:57] per pregnancy

[00:27:59] of every embryo

[00:28:00] that goes into

[00:28:00] the system.

[00:28:01] So it is a

[00:28:02] significant financial

[00:28:03] investment to do IVF.

[00:28:04] On the flip side,

[00:28:05] you're going to have

[00:28:06] an animal that grows

[00:28:07] faster, that requires

[00:28:09] less input, and could

[00:28:10] also be sold at a

[00:28:11] premium, so that's

[00:28:12] the benefit.

[00:28:12] By our technology

[00:28:13] at MGenesis,

[00:28:14] we're trying to push

[00:28:15] the boundaries of

[00:28:16] that 50% pregnancy

[00:28:17] rate.

[00:28:17] By selecting the

[00:28:18] healthiest embryos

[00:28:19] that are going to

[00:28:20] make viable pregnancies

[00:28:21] rather than not

[00:28:22] make pregnancies at

[00:28:23] all, we can improve

[00:28:24] pregnancy outcomes by

[00:28:25] about 20%, which

[00:28:27] really decreases

[00:28:28] producers' cost per

[00:28:29] pregnancy at the

[00:28:30] end of the day.

[00:28:31] Yeah, that's a lot.

[00:28:32] I mean, if you add

[00:28:32] it up 5,500 times,

[00:28:34] if you're putting

[00:28:34] embryos in like 10,

[00:28:35] 20 cows, that adds

[00:28:36] up pretty quickly to

[00:28:38] like tens of

[00:28:38] thousands of

[00:28:39] dollars.

[00:28:39] It is.

[00:28:40] In fact, I'll raise

[00:28:42] you in here.

[00:28:43] A lot of the groups

[00:28:43] that we work with are

[00:28:44] doing about 100

[00:28:45] embryos per day.

[00:28:46] I even know of a

[00:28:48] farm that's doing

[00:28:49] about 1,000 embryos

[00:28:50] a day, seven days a

[00:28:51] week.

[00:28:52] So these really

[00:28:53] progressive groups

[00:28:54] that have really

[00:28:54] invested in genetics

[00:28:55] and IVF as a method

[00:28:57] to breathe their

[00:28:57] animals, they're

[00:28:58] putting tens of

[00:28:59] millions of dollars

[00:28:59] into these systems

[00:29:00] each year because

[00:29:02] they've seen the

[00:29:02] results of genetic

[00:29:03] progress really be

[00:29:04] advantageous to their

[00:29:05] herds.

[00:29:06] How big are these

[00:29:07] operations?

[00:29:07] Are we talking about

[00:29:08] the Cargills of

[00:29:09] the world?

[00:29:10] What sort of scale

[00:29:11] of operations are

[00:29:12] you working with?

[00:29:12] It completely

[00:29:13] ranges.

[00:29:14] No one out of

[00:29:14] Cargill of the

[00:29:15] world, if you will,

[00:29:17] but like I said,

[00:29:17] there's some very

[00:29:19] large dairies that

[00:29:20] are really invested

[00:29:21] in this that do up

[00:29:23] to 1,000 embryos a

[00:29:24] day.

[00:29:24] A lot of these

[00:29:25] dairies are not

[00:29:25] doing near that

[00:29:26] many.

[00:29:27] That's a very

[00:29:27] large scale.

[00:29:28] But some of these

[00:29:28] other groups, they

[00:29:29] might just do a

[00:29:30] handful of transfers

[00:29:31] a year.

[00:29:32] They might pick two

[00:29:33] or three of their

[00:29:34] favorite females that

[00:29:35] they're going to

[00:29:36] select as donors.

[00:29:37] They'll invest in

[00:29:38] that and they might

[00:29:38] have 15 embryo

[00:29:39] calves a year and

[00:29:41] that's still

[00:29:41] advantageous to their

[00:29:42] systems.

[00:29:42] So we work with

[00:29:44] farms of all

[00:29:45] sizes, some very

[00:29:47] mom and pop, some

[00:29:48] that are trying to

[00:29:49] have high quality

[00:29:50] genetics just to

[00:29:51] feed their family

[00:29:52] on their farm,

[00:29:53] their own beef,

[00:29:54] raise the way that

[00:29:55] they want to.

[00:29:56] Some of them are

[00:29:56] trying to produce

[00:29:57] animals for their

[00:29:58] children to show and

[00:30:00] then others are

[00:30:00] trying to do this

[00:30:01] more at scale and

[00:30:02] more commercially.

[00:30:03] Did you say that

[00:30:04] developing the

[00:30:04] actual embryo, that

[00:30:05] cost $75?

[00:30:06] It costs a little bit

[00:30:07] more than that.

[00:30:07] The $75 is what

[00:30:09] you pay the

[00:30:10] veterinarian to put

[00:30:12] that embryo into

[00:30:14] the recipient animal.

[00:30:15] Embryo production

[00:30:16] costs are really

[00:30:17] variable and the

[00:30:18] different IVF labs

[00:30:19] have different ways

[00:30:20] that they charge.

[00:30:21] Some of them they

[00:30:21] charge per procedure

[00:30:23] a flat rate.

[00:30:24] Some of them they

[00:30:24] charge per embryo

[00:30:26] produced.

[00:30:27] I think I've seen

[00:30:28] costs about $85 per

[00:30:29] embryo produced

[00:30:30] marketed from some

[00:30:31] of these IVF labs.

[00:30:32] And if I really

[00:30:34] want to throw a

[00:30:35] wrench into the

[00:30:36] system, there is a

[00:30:37] method to produce

[00:30:38] embryos that don't

[00:30:40] actually involve the

[00:30:41] live animals at all.

[00:30:43] And this is the

[00:30:43] cheapest way to make

[00:30:45] embryos.

[00:30:45] In the slaughterhouse,

[00:30:47] the ovaries really

[00:30:48] don't have a lot of

[00:30:49] value.

[00:30:50] I mean, you don't

[00:30:51] eat ovaries, but

[00:30:52] the ovaries are where

[00:30:53] all the eggs live.

[00:30:54] So there are some

[00:30:56] groups that have

[00:30:56] popped up in recent

[00:30:57] years where they

[00:30:58] take the ovaries

[00:30:59] of these slaughtered

[00:31:01] animals, they collect

[00:31:02] the eggs out of

[00:31:03] those ovaries, and

[00:31:05] then they fertilize

[00:31:05] them with good

[00:31:06] semen and make

[00:31:07] embryos out of

[00:31:08] them.

[00:31:08] This is a much

[00:31:09] cheaper process

[00:31:10] because it doesn't

[00:31:11] actually involve the

[00:31:12] live animals.

[00:31:13] And the market for

[00:31:14] this is mostly two

[00:31:16] things.

[00:31:16] One is an

[00:31:16] international market.

[00:31:17] We can sell U.S.

[00:31:19] genetics in the

[00:31:20] form of an embryo

[00:31:21] and ship it across

[00:31:22] the ocean much

[00:31:23] cheaper than we can

[00:31:24] ship a live animal

[00:31:25] across the ocean.

[00:31:27] An embryo is the

[00:31:27] size of a grain of

[00:31:28] sand.

[00:31:29] So selling these

[00:31:30] cheaper embryos to

[00:31:31] countries like India

[00:31:33] or Africa really

[00:31:34] allows them to have

[00:31:35] highly productive

[00:31:36] western genetics at a

[00:31:38] fraction of the cost

[00:31:38] that it would be to

[00:31:39] make those live

[00:31:40] animals.

[00:31:40] The other market

[00:31:41] demand for this

[00:31:43] slaughterhouse oocyte

[00:31:44] model, if you will,

[00:31:45] is for a system

[00:31:46] called beef and

[00:31:47] dairy.

[00:31:47] Dairies takes a

[00:31:49] female getting

[00:31:50] pregnant and giving

[00:31:51] birth to start

[00:31:52] lactation.

[00:31:52] So she has to have

[00:31:54] a calf and give

[00:31:55] birth to make milk.

[00:31:56] The dairies want

[00:31:57] milk.

[00:31:57] Well, sometimes we

[00:31:58] don't need a one-to-one

[00:31:59] ratio of dairy

[00:32:00] calves to these

[00:32:02] lactating calves.

[00:32:03] So instead of

[00:32:04] making dairy calves

[00:32:05] that we don't want,

[00:32:06] there's a model

[00:32:07] where we can make

[00:32:09] purebred beef

[00:32:09] embryos for the

[00:32:11] beef embryo

[00:32:11] into the dairy

[00:32:13] cow.

[00:32:13] That embryo does

[00:32:14] the job of getting

[00:32:15] that dairy cow

[00:32:16] pregnant and

[00:32:16] lactating and

[00:32:17] making milk,

[00:32:18] but then they have

[00:32:19] a calf that can

[00:32:20] be higher value,

[00:32:21] go into the beef

[00:32:22] system versus a

[00:32:24] dairy cow that they

[00:32:25] don't need or want

[00:32:25] at that time.

[00:32:26] So it really helps

[00:32:27] us maximize the

[00:32:28] best of both the

[00:32:29] genetics in the beef

[00:32:30] world and the dairy

[00:32:31] world under the

[00:32:32] same roof.

[00:32:32] That all sounds

[00:32:33] like, it makes

[00:32:34] total economic

[00:32:35] sense.

[00:32:36] Do you ever just

[00:32:37] get the heebie-jeebies

[00:32:38] talking about this

[00:32:39] stuff?

[00:32:40] And maybe it's

[00:32:40] because I don't

[00:32:41] interact that much

[00:32:42] with cows, but I'm

[00:32:43] just, I don't know,

[00:32:44] the slaughterhouse

[00:32:44] piece, I don't know,

[00:32:45] I just felt a type

[00:32:46] of way about it

[00:32:47] because I was

[00:32:48] thinking about with

[00:32:48] humans, there's

[00:32:49] the organ donation

[00:32:51] process where you can

[00:32:52] sign off on that or

[00:32:53] donate your body to

[00:32:55] research after you

[00:32:56] die.

[00:32:56] There's no kind

[00:32:57] of like consent

[00:32:57] process for these

[00:32:58] cows, obviously, but

[00:33:00] I don't know, do

[00:33:00] you ever feel

[00:33:01] ethically or like

[00:33:02] morally weird about

[00:33:03] this stuff?

[00:33:04] It's a great

[00:33:04] question.

[00:33:05] Science is

[00:33:05] incredibly advanced.

[00:33:06] It's amazing that we

[00:33:08] can do any of this

[00:33:09] stuff and that it

[00:33:10] actually works, but

[00:33:11] ethically and morally,

[00:33:13] I find comfort in

[00:33:15] knowing that we're

[00:33:16] breeding animals that

[00:33:17] are highly productive,

[00:33:18] they're good for the

[00:33:19] planet, they're healthy

[00:33:20] for people to eat.

[00:33:21] Most importantly,

[00:33:22] we breed animals for

[00:33:23] health.

[00:33:23] An efficient animal

[00:33:24] is a healthy animal.

[00:33:25] You're not making a

[00:33:26] lot of milk or a

[00:33:27] lot of meat if

[00:33:27] you're sick and

[00:33:28] can't walk.

[00:33:29] So we're really

[00:33:29] selecting genetics that

[00:33:31] make healthy,

[00:33:32] disease-resistant,

[00:33:33] strong animals.

[00:33:34] So I personally

[00:33:36] believe that the

[00:33:36] work that we do in

[00:33:37] perpetuating these

[00:33:38] genetics, even if the

[00:33:39] origin source is kind

[00:33:40] of funky, that we're

[00:33:42] making healthier

[00:33:43] animals overall and

[00:33:44] that really goes into

[00:33:45] animal welfare.

[00:33:46] I have a dog and a

[00:33:47] cat that sleep with

[00:33:48] me every night.

[00:33:48] I have two horses in

[00:33:50] my backyard that my world

[00:33:51] completely revolves

[00:33:52] around.

[00:33:52] So animal welfare,

[00:33:54] animal well-being is

[00:33:55] definitely front and

[00:33:56] center of something that

[00:33:57] I strive to do as an

[00:33:58] animal scientist every

[00:33:59] day.

[00:34:00] And what I've seen in

[00:34:01] these breeding systems is

[00:34:02] they have a lot of

[00:34:03] experts, a lot of

[00:34:04] veterinarians, and a

[00:34:05] lot of professionals to

[00:34:06] make this work.

[00:34:07] These animals get

[00:34:08] treated incredibly well.

[00:34:09] There's a lot of money

[00:34:10] being spent on them.

[00:34:12] They're up to date on all

[00:34:13] their health records,

[00:34:14] vaccines.

[00:34:14] They have nutritionists

[00:34:15] working for them.

[00:34:16] So I've really seen it

[00:34:18] as a very happy,

[00:34:19] positive side of the

[00:34:20] industry, and I am happy

[00:34:22] to play a role in it.

[00:34:23] So I 100% understand the

[00:34:26] heebie-jeebies that it's

[00:34:27] a little weird, brave new

[00:34:28] world that we're talking

[00:34:29] about.

[00:34:29] But when the end result is

[00:34:31] just a healthy live calf,

[00:34:33] it's kind of rewarding

[00:34:33] and actually kind of

[00:34:34] amazing that we can see

[00:34:35] those animals as a ball

[00:34:36] of cells and then see

[00:34:38] them again nursing and

[00:34:39] walking around in a pen.

[00:34:41] It's pretty fulfilling

[00:34:42] actually.

[00:34:43] How often do you get to

[00:34:44] visit the cows?

[00:34:45] Not as often as I like.

[00:34:46] Being a startup founder,

[00:34:48] I usually joke that I'm

[00:34:49] an expert in PowerPoint

[00:34:50] and pitching by this

[00:34:51] point, and I don't get

[00:34:52] actually the hands-on

[00:34:53] experience with the

[00:34:54] animals that I like.

[00:34:55] But, you know, I do work

[00:34:56] really closely with the

[00:34:58] groups that we collect

[00:34:59] data with, our customers,

[00:35:00] go to different events

[00:35:02] and shows and stuff.

[00:35:02] So I do get to see them

[00:35:03] every once in a while,

[00:35:04] and I do have a lot of

[00:35:05] people that send me

[00:35:06] photos and videos of the

[00:35:07] babies that we make.

[00:35:08] So that's really

[00:35:09] rewarding.

[00:35:10] That's super sweet.

[00:35:11] Just on a personal note,

[00:35:12] so I have a dog too,

[00:35:13] and I love him to death,

[00:35:15] but every time we travel,

[00:35:16] it's always like a,

[00:35:17] you know, you gotta

[00:35:18] plan around for it.

[00:35:19] How do you plan for

[00:35:20] travel?

[00:35:20] Because we just met up

[00:35:21] in California with your

[00:35:22] horses.

[00:35:23] So I'm married.

[00:35:24] My husband is a great

[00:35:26] stay-at-home horse,

[00:35:27] dog, and cat dad.

[00:35:28] So we joke that we

[00:35:30] can't go on trips with

[00:35:30] each other because

[00:35:31] typically one of us

[00:35:32] needs to be at home

[00:35:33] taking care of animals.

[00:35:34] But my parents are

[00:35:36] actually an amazing

[00:35:37] support system.

[00:35:38] I think my dog likes

[00:35:39] my mom more than

[00:35:40] anyone in this world.

[00:35:41] She brings some treats

[00:35:42] and toys every time she

[00:35:43] comes to visit.

[00:35:44] So my parents definitely

[00:35:46] help pick up the slack

[00:35:47] for travel,

[00:35:48] and we'll come stay

[00:35:48] at our house and take

[00:35:49] care of the horses,

[00:35:50] dog, and cat if we

[00:35:51] have to leave.

[00:35:52] But yeah, yeah,

[00:35:52] it takes a village

[00:35:53] sometimes.

[00:35:54] Yeah, that's so nice

[00:35:55] that your parents are

[00:35:55] nearby.

[00:35:56] Very nice.

[00:35:57] Yeah, no, I really

[00:35:58] appreciate the work

[00:35:59] that they do,

[00:35:59] and I know that

[00:36:01] they're probably even

[00:36:01] better taken care of

[00:36:02] with grandma and

[00:36:03] grandpa than with

[00:36:04] us, so totally

[00:36:05] spoiled.

[00:36:05] I don't have to worry

[00:36:06] at all, but I do

[00:36:08] have cameras on my

[00:36:09] horses, so we can

[00:36:10] peek at them if

[00:36:11] necessary.

[00:36:11] After entering this

[00:36:13] space and being in

[00:36:14] the cattle industry,

[00:36:15] has it changed the

[00:36:16] way you think about

[00:36:16] food at all or

[00:36:17] changed the way you

[00:36:18] eat?

[00:36:19] Yeah, you know, I

[00:36:20] think overall, if I

[00:36:21] were to say how I

[00:36:22] think about it, I

[00:36:22] think I appreciate it

[00:36:23] a lot more.

[00:36:24] I mean, food doesn't

[00:36:25] just magically get on

[00:36:27] anybody's plate.

[00:36:28] It takes a lot of

[00:36:29] science, a lot of

[00:36:30] research, and a lot

[00:36:31] of people managing

[00:36:32] really complex systems

[00:36:33] like live organisms,

[00:36:35] like the weather,

[00:36:37] like droughts, and

[00:36:38] you know, different

[00:36:39] climate crisis, and

[00:36:40] that to create food,

[00:36:42] whether it be plants

[00:36:42] or animal protein, for

[00:36:45] us to consume.

[00:36:46] I feel really safe and

[00:36:48] comforted in the

[00:36:48] quality of food that

[00:36:50] we produce in this

[00:36:51] country, just getting

[00:36:52] to go out to these

[00:36:53] farms, seeing the

[00:36:54] animals' lives, seeing

[00:36:55] where they live, and

[00:36:56] seeing that a lot of

[00:36:57] these animals get

[00:36:58] taken care of like

[00:36:59] pampered pets just

[00:37:00] because they have so

[00:37:01] many scientists

[00:37:03] working on them every

[00:37:04] single day.

[00:37:04] So I have definitely

[00:37:05] come to appreciate

[00:37:06] it.

[00:37:07] I think we call it

[00:37:08] advocating sometimes

[00:37:09] in this industry,

[00:37:10] where it's just fun to

[00:37:11] share stories about

[00:37:12] agriculture that most

[00:37:14] people don't necessarily

[00:37:15] get to see.

[00:37:16] And I think I'm a good

[00:37:17] example of this because

[00:37:18] I grew up southwest

[00:37:19] Houston in the

[00:37:20] suburbs, and I was not

[00:37:22] born on a ranch.

[00:37:23] I did not necessarily

[00:37:24] know how cattle were

[00:37:26] produced or, you know,

[00:37:27] where food came from,

[00:37:29] but studying the stuff,

[00:37:30] working with the people,

[00:37:31] it just really gives you

[00:37:32] a good sense of

[00:37:33] wholesomeness that a lot

[00:37:34] of care and inspection

[00:37:35] and animal health

[00:37:36] monitoring goes into

[00:37:37] everything that we eat.

[00:37:39] And like I said earlier,

[00:37:40] we're economically

[00:37:41] incentivized to do so.

[00:37:42] These animals aren't

[00:37:43] healthy, people don't

[00:37:44] get paid.

[00:37:45] So that's a lose-lose.

[00:37:46] So we're really

[00:37:47] incentivized as an

[00:37:48] industry to make as

[00:37:48] healthy of animals as

[00:37:49] possible.

[00:37:50] And that makes me feel

[00:37:51] good about the food that

[00:37:52] I consume.

[00:37:53] So not to play devil's

[00:37:54] advocate, I'm just like

[00:37:55] coming from a curious

[00:37:56] place, but I think on the

[00:37:57] media we see a lot of

[00:37:58] coverage of these

[00:37:59] CAFOs, the

[00:38:00] concentrated animal

[00:38:01] feeding operations.

[00:38:02] And my understanding is

[00:38:04] with animals that are in

[00:38:05] those places, they'll

[00:38:07] spend most of their

[00:38:08] life in kind of like a

[00:38:09] small, tight space.

[00:38:11] Whereas maybe the

[00:38:12] beginning of life,

[00:38:12] they'll have more room

[00:38:14] and be better taken

[00:38:15] care of, and then end

[00:38:16] of life, they're taken

[00:38:17] to a slaughterhouse.

[00:38:17] Is that kind of your

[00:38:19] understanding of the

[00:38:20] industry?

[00:38:20] So yeah, I mean,

[00:38:21] most beef animals live

[00:38:22] the majority of their

[00:38:23] life on pasture, and

[00:38:25] they're only taken to

[00:38:26] the feedlot in their

[00:38:27] last final months to

[00:38:28] really put on weight

[00:38:29] before they're

[00:38:30] slaughtered.

[00:38:31] And yeah, that is a

[00:38:32] harsh reality of trying

[00:38:34] to feed a world with

[00:38:36] over 8 billion people

[00:38:37] on this planet.

[00:38:38] But even in the

[00:38:39] feedlot, I've seen good

[00:38:41] measures trying to

[00:38:42] protect these animals

[00:38:43] and keep them

[00:38:43] comfortable as much as

[00:38:44] possible.

[00:38:45] It's definitely not the

[00:38:46] nice pasture that we

[00:38:47] see them on, but they

[00:38:48] love the feed.

[00:38:49] They think it tastes

[00:38:50] great, so they're

[00:38:51] pretty happy about

[00:38:51] that.

[00:38:52] They always will have

[00:38:53] clean water, they'll

[00:38:54] have shade, but I've

[00:38:55] even seen some cool

[00:38:56] stuff that people are

[00:38:57] doing to reduce stress

[00:38:58] in animals.

[00:38:59] For example, someone on

[00:39:01] my board, Dr. Tom

[00:39:02] Smith, he's actually

[00:39:04] co-founder of a really

[00:39:05] cool product called

[00:39:06] Therapies.

[00:39:07] And what Therapies is,

[00:39:08] it's a pheromone product

[00:39:10] that is topical.

[00:39:12] You could put it on

[00:39:13] these animals on their

[00:39:14] forehead or on their

[00:39:15] neck, and when they

[00:39:16] inhale it, it releases

[00:39:17] stress and it calms

[00:39:19] them down and it

[00:39:20] reduces cortisol

[00:39:21] ultimately at the end

[00:39:22] of the day.

[00:39:22] So it makes them more

[00:39:23] comfortably.

[00:39:24] I have been to some

[00:39:25] slaughterhouses.

[00:39:26] The first time I went,

[00:39:27] I wasn't really sure

[00:39:28] what to expect, and it

[00:39:30] wasn't as bad as I

[00:39:31] thought.

[00:39:31] I mean, sure, not

[00:39:33] great.

[00:39:34] I'll consent to that

[00:39:34] all day, every day.

[00:39:35] But at the slaughterhouse,

[00:39:37] the animals have to be

[00:39:38] inspected live by a

[00:39:39] veterinarian once they

[00:39:40] get there.

[00:39:40] So if that animal's sick

[00:39:42] coming off the truck or

[00:39:43] can't walk, they're not

[00:39:44] allowed to go into that

[00:39:45] system.

[00:39:46] The slaughter process is

[00:39:47] very quick, as painless as

[00:39:49] possible.

[00:39:49] I hate that part, but I'll

[00:39:51] say that it's quick.

[00:39:52] And then everything after

[00:39:53] that point is going to

[00:39:54] protect the meat and keep

[00:39:56] it safe for human

[00:39:57] consumption.

[00:39:58] I know that they have

[00:39:59] USDA inspectors that

[00:40:01] they'll look at the

[00:40:01] lymph nodes and check

[00:40:02] other things to make

[00:40:03] sure that animal wasn't

[00:40:04] sick at time of

[00:40:05] slaughter.

[00:40:06] And then they really

[00:40:07] just go trying to keep

[00:40:08] the temperature right,

[00:40:09] prevent contamination.

[00:40:11] And I think they even

[00:40:12] x-ray the animals to

[00:40:13] make sure no chips or

[00:40:14] needles or anything are

[00:40:16] in their meat.

[00:40:17] So it's a necessary evil,

[00:40:19] I think, in my opinion.

[00:40:20] I don't love it, but we

[00:40:21] have to have high, dense

[00:40:23] nutrition for the people

[00:40:24] on this planet and for

[00:40:26] our pets and the other

[00:40:27] animals on this planet.

[00:40:28] And I just, I don't know

[00:40:30] at this day and age how we

[00:40:32] could feed our population

[00:40:33] without these systems.

[00:40:34] So, you know, it's one of

[00:40:36] those things that we have

[00:40:37] to accept.

[00:40:37] But I do know with the

[00:40:39] people that I work with,

[00:40:41] we try to make every day

[00:40:42] of that animal's life as

[00:40:43] comfortable as possible.

[00:40:44] And fortunately, most of

[00:40:46] their life is spent grazing

[00:40:47] in a nice, beautiful

[00:40:49] pasture somewhere.

[00:40:50] They put a lot of money

[00:40:51] in science into their soil

[00:40:52] to make, you know, good

[00:40:53] diversity of grasses and

[00:40:55] such, which, you know, go

[00:40:56] into turn, make healthy

[00:40:58] meat and milk.

[00:40:58] So it's tough.

[00:40:59] I hate that process, which

[00:41:00] is why I focus on the

[00:41:01] making babies end of the

[00:41:03] spectrum rather than the

[00:41:04] end of life end of that

[00:41:05] spectrum.

[00:41:06] But yeah, that's what

[00:41:07] I've seen.

[00:41:08] And like I said, I'm kind

[00:41:09] of the city girl from

[00:41:10] Houston that got immersed

[00:41:12] into the system.

[00:41:13] And it's been a lot of

[00:41:14] learning, but I do

[00:41:15] appreciate it.

[00:41:16] And I am very proud of

[00:41:18] the food that we make

[00:41:18] in this country.

[00:41:19] Just to confirm, like,

[00:41:20] how long are the cows

[00:41:21] spending on pasture versus

[00:41:23] in the feedlot?

[00:41:23] So they're typically

[00:41:25] slaughtered by the time

[00:41:26] they're two years old.

[00:41:27] And we do that because we

[00:41:29] want to hit peak growth.

[00:41:30] Because, you know, if you

[00:41:31] slaughter them as calves,

[00:41:32] what, you're going to get

[00:41:32] a couple hundred pounds of

[00:41:34] meat off of them?

[00:41:35] We want, you know, to make

[00:41:37] as much meat per animal as

[00:41:38] possible.

[00:41:38] But once they're done

[00:41:39] growing, there's really no

[00:41:40] point in keeping them

[00:41:42] alive, if you will, because

[00:41:43] then you're just going to

[00:41:44] feed an animal that's not

[00:41:46] going to get any bigger.

[00:41:47] And also, the meat gets

[00:41:48] less tender as the animals

[00:41:50] get older.

[00:41:51] So it's a higher quality

[00:41:52] eating experience if these

[00:41:54] animals are slaughtered

[00:41:55] younger.

[00:41:55] Like I said, we usually aim

[00:41:56] to slaughter them by the

[00:41:58] time they're two years

[00:41:59] old.

[00:41:59] And they probably won't end

[00:42:01] up in a feedlot, but for

[00:42:02] the last, like, three or

[00:42:04] four months of their life,

[00:42:05] I believe.

[00:42:06] So up until then, they're

[00:42:07] born on grass and pasture.

[00:42:09] And those are the cows that

[00:42:10] you see driving along

[00:42:11] highways in rural America.

[00:42:13] That makes me feel a bit

[00:42:14] better.

[00:42:15] I wasn't sure, like, how

[00:42:16] much time they actually

[00:42:17] spend, you know, on

[00:42:18] pasture versus feedlot.

[00:42:19] Feedlot, I mean, that's

[00:42:20] an expensive diet to give

[00:42:21] them.

[00:42:22] So pasture is much

[00:42:23] cheaper.

[00:42:24] It's less labor

[00:42:25] intensive.

[00:42:25] You put the animals out

[00:42:27] there and you check on

[00:42:28] them every few days.

[00:42:29] Now, with cool technology

[00:42:31] like ear sensors and

[00:42:32] stuff, we can get alerts,

[00:42:33] you know, where those

[00:42:34] animals are, GPS alerts

[00:42:35] and stuff like that.

[00:42:36] But it really is cheaper

[00:42:38] to keep these animals on

[00:42:40] grass.

[00:42:40] So we try to do that as

[00:42:41] long as possible and

[00:42:42] then finish them in the

[00:42:44] feedlot so they can pack

[00:42:45] on the pounds to make as

[00:42:47] much protein per animal.

[00:42:48] And then once they hit

[00:42:49] that plateau is when

[00:42:51] they're slaughtered.

[00:42:52] What are your thoughts on

[00:42:53] grass finished beef?

[00:42:54] I think it's great.

[00:42:55] I think that there's a lot

[00:42:56] of data that says that the

[00:42:57] beef is a more nutritious

[00:42:59] product depending on the

[00:43:01] kind of grasses that

[00:43:01] they're eating.

[00:43:02] But the harsh reality is

[00:43:04] grass finish is a really

[00:43:05] inefficient system.

[00:43:07] We can't grow the animals

[00:43:08] at the same size, grass

[00:43:09] finishing them as we can

[00:43:11] in a feedlot.

[00:43:12] So if we're going to feed

[00:43:13] all the people in cities,

[00:43:15] we don't have enough

[00:43:16] pastures to do that.

[00:43:18] Like we have to do that

[00:43:19] with the feedlot where

[00:43:20] they're fed the more

[00:43:21] concentrated diet.

[00:43:22] So I mean it would be

[00:43:23] great if we can get to a

[00:43:25] point in society where

[00:43:27] animals can be grass

[00:43:29] finished and still have

[00:43:30] the efficiency to feed

[00:43:31] our population.

[00:43:32] But we're just not there

[00:43:33] yet.

[00:43:34] But as a shameless plug to

[00:43:36] the IVF industry,

[00:43:37] everything that we do

[00:43:38] with genetics is

[00:43:38] permanent and it's

[00:43:39] cumulative.

[00:43:40] So the more we shift

[00:43:41] these animals genetically

[00:43:42] to grow fast, be feed

[00:43:44] efficient, we're one step

[00:43:46] closer to getting to a

[00:43:47] point where we can really

[00:43:48] grow these animals in

[00:43:49] regenerative agricultural

[00:43:50] systems, grass fed, where

[00:43:52] potentially they can be

[00:43:54] productive enough to feed

[00:43:55] Earth's population.

[00:43:56] Okay, I love that.

[00:43:57] There we go.

[00:43:58] IVF and regenerative.

[00:44:00] Okay, yes, I'm on board.

[00:44:02] Can I ask like when you

[00:44:03] shop personally for beef

[00:44:05] or milk, do you now look

[00:44:06] for certain labels or

[00:44:07] certain things?

[00:44:08] Well, I am a startup

[00:44:09] founder who doesn't pay

[00:44:11] myself very well.

[00:44:12] So we typically buy the

[00:44:13] lower price products.

[00:44:14] Just because, you know,

[00:44:15] that's what I can afford.

[00:44:17] But like I said, you

[00:44:18] know, I know that all

[00:44:19] that product has been

[00:44:20] inspected.

[00:44:21] I've been to the farms

[00:44:22] where it comes from.

[00:44:23] I've been impressed with

[00:44:24] every farm that I've

[00:44:25] gotten to go to to date.

[00:44:26] So even those lower

[00:44:28] value products, the

[00:44:30] cheap non-organic milk

[00:44:31] or whatever, it's still a

[00:44:32] high quality product in

[00:44:33] my mind.

[00:44:33] So yeah, maybe one day

[00:44:35] we'll, you know, sell

[00:44:36] them Genesis and I can

[00:44:37] buy whatever I want.

[00:44:38] But right now we

[00:44:39] grocery shop on a

[00:44:40] budget.

[00:44:40] You get all the Angus

[00:44:41] beef you want.

[00:44:42] Yeah.

[00:44:43] I love it.

[00:44:44] Okay.

[00:44:44] Any scientists or

[00:44:45] entrepreneurs listening to

[00:44:46] this podcast, you know,

[00:44:47] you've obviously made a lot

[00:44:49] of inroads with

[00:44:49] MGenesis.

[00:44:50] If you were to give any

[00:44:51] advice to scientists

[00:44:53] looking to bring a

[00:44:54] technology to market,

[00:44:55] what advice would you

[00:44:56] share?

[00:44:57] Well, I am a scientist.

[00:44:58] I came out of academics

[00:44:59] and basically did this.

[00:45:01] And I think the biggest

[00:45:02] strength that I had was I

[00:45:04] had really good mentors

[00:45:05] from the start and I was

[00:45:06] open-minded and coachable.

[00:45:08] And I think that those two

[00:45:09] things are really the

[00:45:11] pillars of what make a

[00:45:12] good entrepreneur.

[00:45:13] As a scientist, I've

[00:45:14] definitely had to swallow

[00:45:16] my pride several times.

[00:45:18] I came out of academics

[00:45:19] and I thought I knew

[00:45:20] everything.

[00:45:21] I'd published papers.

[00:45:22] I'd done peer-reviewed

[00:45:23] presentations.

[00:45:24] But sometimes applying

[00:45:25] scientific innovation to

[00:45:27] industries at scale are

[00:45:28] two totally different

[00:45:29] ballgames.

[00:45:30] I've really had to pivot

[00:45:31] some of my scientific

[00:45:33] ideas and really immerse

[00:45:35] myself into the

[00:45:36] commercial IVF sector and

[00:45:38] see what can these labs do?

[00:45:39] What can they do with

[00:45:40] time constraints?

[00:45:41] What can they do with

[00:45:42] labor constraints?

[00:45:43] What can they afford and

[00:45:44] what can they do at scale?

[00:45:46] And then we have to take

[00:45:47] that scientific innovation

[00:45:48] and apply those demands

[00:45:51] from the market to them.

[00:45:52] And sometimes just because

[00:45:53] something works doesn't

[00:45:54] mean we'll use it.

[00:45:55] But if you're open-minded,

[00:45:56] you can see these things

[00:45:57] and do different iterations

[00:45:58] of your technology to get

[00:45:59] there.

[00:46:00] It would not be here today

[00:46:01] if I didn't have good

[00:46:02] mentors and people that

[00:46:03] were willing to take a

[00:46:05] chance on me, let me come

[00:46:06] to their farm, let me come

[00:46:07] to their lab, let me see

[00:46:08] what the real world does.

[00:46:10] And with that, we've been

[00:46:10] able to take a lot of

[00:46:11] insights and do that.

[00:46:12] I would also tell

[00:46:13] entrepreneurs that

[00:46:15] entrepreneurship is not a

[00:46:16] get-rich-quick plan.

[00:46:17] It can be a get-rich plan,

[00:46:18] but it's definitely not a

[00:46:19] get-rich-quick plan.

[00:46:20] I've been with Imgenesis

[00:46:21] for five years.

[00:46:22] We started as an idea.

[00:46:24] Now we have a product.

[00:46:25] We're just now raised our

[00:46:26] first seed fund and are

[00:46:28] getting our first revenue

[00:46:29] in.

[00:46:30] So it's taken five years

[00:46:31] of really hustling and

[00:46:32] grinding to get to this

[00:46:33] point.

[00:46:34] And there's been a million

[00:46:35] reasons financially or

[00:46:37] motivationally why we

[00:46:38] should give up.

[00:46:39] But I mean, I think when

[00:46:40] you're trying to quite

[00:46:41] literally change the world,

[00:46:43] whether that's the food

[00:46:43] that people eat or keeping

[00:46:45] rhinos on this planet

[00:46:46] longer, it's going to be

[00:46:47] a long road and there's

[00:46:48] going to be challenges.

[00:46:49] I would just say buckle

[00:46:50] up, prepare to have to be

[00:46:52] resilient, but it really

[00:46:53] is a rewarding career

[00:46:55] path I've found.

[00:46:56] I've gotten to meet some

[00:46:57] of the coolest people in

[00:46:58] the world.

[00:46:58] I get to learn about new

[00:46:59] stuff every day.

[00:47:00] I like being introduced to

[00:47:02] stuff on your podcast,

[00:47:03] Jane.

[00:47:03] So it's very rewarding,

[00:47:05] but it's definitely

[00:47:05] challenging and not without

[00:47:07] its obstacles.

[00:47:08] I'm so glad you mentioned

[00:47:09] the open mindedness.

[00:47:11] And I think it's so true

[00:47:12] coming from academia and

[00:47:14] trying to bring your

[00:47:15] innovation to market.

[00:47:16] There's just so much stuff

[00:47:17] that like when it hits the

[00:47:18] oxygen of real people

[00:47:20] wanting to pay you stuff,

[00:47:21] like you do have to pivot

[00:47:23] and iterate sometimes.

[00:47:24] People think with their

[00:47:25] wallets, I mean, it could be

[00:47:27] the best science in the

[00:47:27] world, but if economically it

[00:47:29] doesn't make sense, then

[00:47:30] people won't use it.

[00:47:31] So we have to take all of

[00:47:32] these things, economics,

[00:47:34] our personal mission,

[00:47:36] sustainability goals,

[00:47:37] altruistic goals, and wrap

[00:47:39] it up in a process that it

[00:47:41] makes sense economically for

[00:47:42] the people buying it or else

[00:47:44] we'll never get a single

[00:47:45] sale.

[00:47:45] It takes a lot of humility

[00:47:46] and patience.

[00:47:47] It does.

[00:47:48] Well, I'm a big fan of your

[00:47:49] work, Cara, and it sounds

[00:47:51] like y'all are doing some

[00:47:52] really important work for

[00:47:53] the industry and climate

[00:47:54] change and animal welfare,

[00:47:56] and I'm a fan.

[00:47:57] And I appreciate you coming

[00:47:58] on the pod and also holding

[00:47:59] a safe space for me to ask

[00:48:01] some really basic questions

[00:48:02] about the industry.

[00:48:03] I learned a lot this hour,

[00:48:04] and I really appreciate you

[00:48:05] being on.

[00:48:06] Oh, thank you so much, Jane,

[00:48:08] for the opportunity to be

[00:48:09] here, and please fire away

[00:48:10] with the questions.

[00:48:11] This is, it's a crazy

[00:48:13] science.

[00:48:13] We don't mind being

[00:48:14] challenged, and you know,

[00:48:16] consumers have to buy our

[00:48:17] products, so if there's

[00:48:17] concerns, then IVF doesn't

[00:48:19] have a place in

[00:48:20] agriculture.

[00:48:20] So yeah, please keep

[00:48:22] challenging us.

[00:48:22] Your listeners are more

[00:48:23] than welcome to reach out

[00:48:24] to me, and yeah, happy to

[00:48:26] keep the conversation going.

[00:48:27] Thank you.

[00:48:28] And that's a wrap.

[00:48:29] Thank you so much for

[00:48:30] tuning in.

[00:48:31] Remember to nourish your

[00:48:32] body, and I'll talk to you

[00:48:33] next time.